This column attempts to explore the lives and work of IAPSP members from different parts of the world. In this ninth interview of the series, I am pleased to have a conversation with Bruce Ervin from Edina MN. Bruce was one of the IAPSP Early Career Professional scholarship winners in the first year of the program. Bruce is an ordained Minister in the Presbyterian Church (USA), and a Licenced Marriage and Family Therapist in Minnesota and in California. He is presently in the process of completing his training in Psychoanalysis at the Minnesota Institute for Contemporary Psychotherapy and Psychoanalysis (MICPP). In this interview with him we will hopefully find out more about him, his life and work, and how this scholarship has impacted his career.

Interview with Bruce Ervin

Annette: Hello Bruce. Thank you for kindly accepting to be interviewed by me for the readers of eForum. I am eager to know more about you and about your work in your part of the US. You were one of the first ECPs who won an IAPSP scholarship. Can you tell us when this was, and how you were drawn to apply for it? How did you get interested in Self Psychology?

Bruce: Hi Annette. Thank you for the invitation to be interviewed for eForum. I applied for the ECP scholarship in the Spring of 2016. At the time, I was a student taking courses in the Program in Psychoanalysis (PP) at the Minnesota Institute for Contemporary Psychotherapy and Psychoanalysis (MICPP). MICPP’s Founder and then Executive Director, Gary Perrin, Ph.D., passed along the invitation from the ECP committee to apply for the scholarship and encouraged me and the others in the cohort to apply.

My interest in Self Psychology began a few years prior when I was a student in MICPP’s two-year Contemporary Psychoanalytic Psychotherapy Program (CPPP). Before that exposure, I was not aware of Self Psychology. My master’s level training (MA-MFT) was in family systems theories. Prior to that degree, I had some exposure to psychoanalytic theories through a course in developmental psychology taken during seminary (M.Div.). That course was more dominated by ego psychoanalytic theory.

During my marriage and family therapy training in Southern California, I engaged in my own psychoanalytically focused psychotherapy. I was drawn to this depth approach and overall found the experience to be helpful—especially the experience of the relationship. However, I did encounter at times feelings of disconnect and invalidation which were hard to articulate. In looking back, I believe that what I experienced was a lack of resonance with some of my therapist’s interpretations. I felt in a bind if I disagreed with those interpretations; that is, a sense that I was sometimes being viewed as avoidant or resistant. I felt pulled to discount my own self-understanding and accommodate to the therapist’s view. Also, I found ending therapy, even after several years, to be a power struggle and threat to the overall positive feelings I had about the experience. It felt like I could never exit therapy without a sense of damage to and loss of the positive tie I had felt with the therapist.

Just prior to and throughout my training at MICPP I re-engaged in therapy with a Self Psychology, Intersubjective Systems Theory and Attachment oriented therapist. This psychotherapy experience of several years was most helpful. I grew in my ability to better regulate my emotions in marriage and other personal and professional relationships. I gained increased self-confidence and a stronger sense of agency in personal and professional settings. I felt deeply respected, believed in, and I left with a positive connection with and appreciation for my therapist and the experience. I did NOT encounter those negative feelings I previously described related to my prior therapy experiences. I have come to understand that those former therapists practiced from a more classical or Ego Psychology approach.

I deeply resonated with what I was learning as I studied Self Psychology and what I was experiencing of it through my own therapy. I found this new way of thinking and being helpful in my work with patients. Those experiences led me to move on to the PP at MICPP and to deepen connections with the IAPSP community through the ECP.

Annette: Bruce, this is a very moving account of your encounter with Self Psychology. You felt it in your bones if I may say so. I can understand that it made you want to learn more about it. Can you please tell us a bit more about your experience as an ECP scholar? Who was your assigned mentor? How was your encounter with her or him, and with the IAPSP community at your first International Conference participation?

Bruce: First, I was grateful to receive the scholarship award. Not only did it provide valuable financial assistance enabling my attendance at the Boston annual conference, but it also contributed to my growing sense of belonging to a caring, inspiring professional community of mentorship and learning that resonated with my personal and professional leanings. In the spirit and terminology of Self Psychology, it provided me with a great selfobject experience!

Maria Slowiacek served as my mentor. She generously offered to meet with me every other week over the course of the year. Our time together was spent in a variety of ways, sometimes reflecting on professional papers, other times discussing the application of theory to cases I would bring or she would share, responding to questions I would raise to clarify my understanding of Self Psychology and Intersubjectivity theory, and offering vocational and personal support and guidance. Maria was professional and collegial. She was a particularly good match for me, and I will always remember her mentorship with appreciation.

Finally, being able to attend the annual conference in Boston provided an opportunity to meet face-to-face with some of my teachers who taught via Skype at MICPP. I also had the chance to see others from whom I have learned through their excellent writing. To meet and see those other mentors in-person enhanced my sense of connection to this professional community that has nourished my clinical skills and practice. It was and is inspiring to maintain and develop those connections.

Annette: Bruce, it sounds as though this scholarship and its offerings were an impactful positive experience for you as a person and as a clinician. I’m sure Maria is indeed a wonderful mentor. After that year of mentorship with Maria, and the Boston IAPSP Conference, how did you continue to develop those connections you valued? Is your Minnesota Institute (MICPP) offering you the learning opportunities in Self Psychology you want and need?

Bruce: There are a few ways I have continued to develop my IAPSP connections. In 2017 I attended the annual conference held in Chicago. In addition to attending various paper presentations and break-out sessions, there I took part in the Students and Candidates discussion group facilitated by Dr. Richard Geist as well as the Students and Candidates Reception. While at the Boston and Chicago conferences I was grateful to meet in-person with the faculty members from IPSS (NYC) and ICPP East (Washington, DC) who were my teachers at MICPP. Around 2018 I was invited to be a member of the leadership team of MICPP. In that capacity, our leadership team consulted with IAPSP members—particularly Jackie Gotthold, Dorienne Sorter and J.P. Cheuvront—as our institute was going through a leadership transition. Also, in my leadership role at our institute, I have used my IAPSP connections to recruit national faculty members to assist us in providing courses for our students. Recently, I joined IAPSP’s online Teaching Interest Group facilitated by Elizabeth Carr. I am also currently participating in an online book study (Intersubjective Self Psychology: A Primer) sponsored by the TRISP foundation which I learned about through IAPSP’s listserv email. IAPSP continues to be a wonderful resource of relationships and learning opportunities to continue my professional growth, leadership and personal connections. Finally, yes, MICPP provides opportunities to continue learning about Self Psychology. Specifically, our Board Chair, who is also one of our Senior Faculty members, and I have worked together in teaching a Foundations of Self Psychology course in our two-year Contemporary Psychoanalytic Psychotherapy Program (CPPP). The opportunity to partner with Colin Hollidge, Ph.D., LICSW in this teaching endeavor has strengthened my understanding of Self Psychology and nurtured my desire to grow as a teacher.

Annette: I see that you have been very active in furthering your development as a therapist and leader, and that you have found a way to deepen your knowledge of Self Psychology through teaching it. That has always been my experience too. In what ways can you see that this knowledge has influenced your practice? Are you still seeing couples and families along with individual patients? Has this knowledge also affected your pastoral work in the Presbyterian Church (USA)?

Bruce: Training in Self Psychology has had a significant influence on my practice. It has provided a deeper understanding of the emotional/psychological and relational needs of my patients along with the promise of the therapeutic relationship for their healing and growth. That understanding and greater consciousness of the intention and purpose of the therapeutic encounter has helped me to engage with patients in ways that seem to have borne fruit in their lives. I have grown more comfortable with myself and with what I have to offer as a psychotherapist. My increasing capacity to recognize and empathically understand the hopes and fears of patients and support their strivings for growth has resulted in stronger connections and deeper satisfaction in those relationships. Since beginning psychoanalytic training, my case load has increased considerably, has remained stable and has felt truly rewarding.

I primarily see individual adults (60-70%) and couples (30-40%). I work with families from time-to-time, but do not receive many calls for family therapy. Self Psychology’s understanding/emphasis on the role of empathy in facilitating a felt sense of safety, comfort and belonging has been immensely helpful in guiding patients toward a deeper understanding of themselves and of the important others in their lives, leading to improved mutual satisfaction in their relationships.

While I remain an ordained minister, I am not currently engaged in explicitly pastoral ministry. Prior to my psychoanalytic training, I served as a student chaplain in a maximum-security prison (NJ), an Associate Pastor in a church (WI) and as a Chaplain in a medical/surgical hospital (CA), a psychiatric hospital (CA), and a senior living community (with care center, assisted and independent living residents in MN). Currently, I am a member of a denominational committee looking at ways to provide pastoral care to pastors. I will serve as a volunteer available to provide one-to-one pastoral care to those who request this.

Regarding the impact of Self Psychology on my pastoral work, I would say the following: The understanding that Self Psychology provides of the fundamental relational nature of being human and of what leads to human flourishing (or devitalization) correlates well with theological perspectives my faith tradition offers concerning those experiences. My faith tradition promotes love of God and love of self and others, rooted in the experience of God’s Love towards us, as the foundation of personal and social wholeness and flourishing life. I cannot think of anything more helpful in fostering this way of life than the insights provided by Self Psychology. The act of being empathically attuned to another, trying to deeply understand another from within their point of view, responding to their needs for safety, comfort and belonging are all manifestations of the love and compassion I have been given and am called to share as a pastor and psychotherapist. Self Psychology’s vision has enabled me to become a more effective agent in promoting personal and social wholeness and vitality to those I serve as pastor and psychotherapist.

I view the aims and methods of Self Psychology as facilitating a freedom to become our truest (enlivened/flourishing) selves, a humanizing relational experience that gives life to individuals and communities in ways that I believe are reflective of God’s love for all.

Annette: I agree with you that the humanistic values and traditions held by Self Psychology are closely aligned with most Christian values, or any other religious traditions as well, and that they can only enhance each other. Your fervour and enthusiasm are inspiring. Thank you for your generous responses to my questions. I have a last one for you: how do you see your future professionally? What do you hope for from our IAPSP community in support of this future vision for yourself?

Bruce: Thank you, Annette, for the opportunity to be interviewed. It has been a pleasure to work with you on this. To your first question about how I see my future professionally, I would begin with focusing on the heart of my work. I want to continually deepen my engagement with patients, providing them with a relational experience and new insights that promote 1) greater understanding of self and others and 2) changes in relating to themselves and others that are healing and life-giving. I will do this through continuing to read, learn, teach and consult with colleagues. I will also work on this by remaining open to what I can learn from listening to what my patients have to teach me. IAPSP is a valuable resource from which to draw in this endeavor. As I mentioned earlier, I have and will continue to take advantage of opportunities for professional development that come through IAPSP (i.e., an online book study, conferences, journal article discussions, teaching interest group).

In addition to my practice, I plan to remain involved in supporting the work of MICPP through leadership, teaching, and community building. Connections within IAPSP are very integral to our institute. I have begun teaching as a faculty member. I would like to continue growing as a teacher. Towards that end, I plan to continue my involvement in IAPSP’s Teaching Interest Group meetings.

While I do not have any specific plans yet, I could imagine someday developing and teaching psychoeducational classes in the community and in churches. These classes would be focused on sharing understandings of healthy emotional/psychological and relational development, drawing from the insights provided by Self Psychology, Intersubjectivity and Attachment research as well as from spirituality. We live in troubled times and I would like to contribute in some small way to the well-being of individuals, couples, families and the society at-large.

What I hope for from IAPSP is primarily that the organization/community “stays the course”. I appreciate having an organization/community that keeps alive and continues to develop our understanding of emotional/psychological and relational health through scholarship, teaching, mentoring, and community-building. I have appreciated IAPSP’s growing use of online, distance-learning options. In places where the contemporary psychoanalytic community is not as strong, those options enable us to keep learning and feel more connected to this community that has nourished our lives and work. Thank you IAPSP for all the support you provide to our membership!

Annette: And thank you Bruce for having generously offered us a glimpse into your journey from being one of the first ECPs who received the IAPSP scholarship to where you are today as a growingly confident practitioner, and as a teacher and a leader in your own community. I hope we soon get a chance to meet face to face one day when the world reopens allowing IAPSP International Conference to resume our in-person gathering. I will have a head start, as others will, to know some things about you. May you continue to thrive in this community!